Fun with theodicys

First off, before I begin, I am not conceding the gratuitous POE is a problem. Despite the incompetent atheists assertion to the contrary, not only do I know what the gratuitous POE is, I know how to effectively deal with it as well. The best and most logical response to the gratuitous evil POE is they are begging the question the evil is gratuitous, since our ignorance does not = lack of reasons for God. It basically amounts to someone thinking of an evil scenario and saying it is gratuitous. In any case, it is often fun to play around with theodicys.

The theodicy of constant principles in response to the gratuitous problem of evil.

God created the universe with constant principles and laws. Water always boils at temperature X it freezes at temperature Y etc. etc. blah blah blah you get the point, anthropic principle ad nauseam. At this point and in this respect specifically, God stepped back and let his machine do what it is designed to do. Now this machine will undoubtedly kill people and cause suffering in its operation, but the death and suffering of some people and animals is insignificant to the amount of good caused by things like constant gravity laws and freezing temperatures for organ transplants. The suffering of a deer burning to death in the woods from a forest fire caused by a lightning strike pales in comparison when those very things that created that scenario helps get nitrogen to the grown to aid plant growth(lightning) the temperature that wood ignites has helped people cook their food and keep warm during winters. No one calls the inventor of the pencil evil because someone died as the result of being stabbed with a pencil. The question that follows would be "God has the power to stop all of the evil that his machine would be responsible for, unlike the inventor of the pencil, so why doesn't he?," and the obvious answer would be because then the laws wouldn't be constant. Science would be nonexistent since it depends upon the laws being the same every single time, our ability to predict, plan, or do anything for ourselves would be non existent as well. I might want to light a fire to cook, but find I cannot because someone around me might get burned to death or the stove might blow up. I might want to go for a swim in the beach but cannot for the suns light has been extinguished because it has caused wild fires in california, etc. etc. I am sure you get the point.

The wii has officially won the console wars.

Apparently it takes priority over drug raids.

You know how every holiday season the stores all sell out of Nintendo Wiis? Well, that's because they're so awesome -- just ask the cops in Polk County, Fla.

In the midst of a drug raid on a house that apparently took nine full hours and cost $4,000, cops apparently were distracted by Wii bowling. Reports say they started the game up within 20 minutes of entering the house and spent hours playing it.

Perpahs they are gladiators then.

Fik Meijer author of 'History's most deadly sport the Gladiators' makes a very interesting observation about the motivations of some Roman citizens to become gladiators.

"Many were motivated by the prospect of escaping poverty. When they were unemployed or underemployed and struggling for their own basic needs, life as a gladiator offered security."

As anyone remotely familiar with the history of boxing which is often referred to as the poor mans sport, it describes almost the exact same reasons people became boxers in the past(great depression) and today. Another interesting tidbit mentioned in the book describes how the concept of promoters was found in those days as well.

"Because gladiator shows attracted such huge crowds at the time of the Roman Empire, the sponsors had to lay down large sums of money to get the most renowned fighters into the arena at all."

Aaron the incompetent atheist pt. 5

More nonsense from the incompetent atheist.

Theo, this is what you need to understand. God is perfectly moral, therefor God can only do moral things. God is also all powerful, thus he does things the best possible way and in the most effective way.

That is why God is obligated to the GPG. The fact that that wasn't obvious to you just shows that you are not trying to do anything here but prove your right, and do this with out considering what I am even saying.

I knew you had nothing. We'll deal with this nonsense one by one. First, I should post the points he's ignored.

1. Aaron is ASSUMING that lowering the GPG is going against the will of God.
2. Aaron is Assuming that Gods existence and 'all goodness' is dependent upon God choosing the GPG.
3. Aaron is assuming that God is obligated in some way shape or form to choose the GPG.

1. God is perfectly moral, therefore God can only do moral things.
This is just more ignorance of basic Christian theology. God is not judged by our moral standards, anymore than Roy Jones Jr is judged by amateur boxing standards. So God is perfectly moral, but the fact our moral system is inferior to His means we cannot judge His actions by our moral system. So Aaron is defining GPG in moral standards that God does not adhere too, assuming that God defines evil in the same way we do as well. Now, if this is supposed to address my points I don't see how it does. If we define evil as suffering and assume that God defines it that way too, then it is not against Gods will to lower the GPG since God has inflicted suffering in the forms of judgments and warnings many times. For ignorant people like Aaron, it goes like this:

1. Suffering lowers the GPG.
2. God has caused suffering through judgments and/or warnings.
3. Therefore lowering the GPG is not against Gods will.

So Aaron is once again incorrect. If we define evil as suffering, then lowering the GPG is not against Gods will nor is His existence dependent upon the GPG nor is He obligated in anyway shape or form to choose the GPG, thus, in addition to #3 being false, his entire argument collapses based upon the unproven and incorrect assumption that Gods existence is dependent upon maintaining the GPG, despite clear evidence it is not the case.


God is also all powerful, thus he does things the best possible way and in the most effective way.

This is just stupid. Aaron, like every other ignorant skeptic that asserts these things forgets the fact that just because one is all powerful does not mean one needs to use that power 100% of the time. For instance, the most effective way to eliminate evil would've been to wipe out the entire human race, including Noah, but because God is merciful, God choose not to kill Noah. This is why assertions like Aarons are both ridiculous and completley ignorant of basic behavior. God most certainly is all powrful but He can certainly choose exactly how He utilizes that power. God choosing to not do something in the most effective way and best possible way is no more unreasonable or unlikely than Roy Jones jr choosing not to fight well below his full potential either. The skeptic might respond, well you're conceding that God is not all powerful, but I am doing no such thing. If you're saying that God is not all powerful because He chooses not to do things in the most effective and best way 100% of the time all the time, then you're conceding that Roy jones jr is not a good fighter because he chooses to not fight the best he can 100% of the time, or conceding that you're not a smart/fast/good artist etc. If you ever choose to not utilize your talents to their full potential all the time 100% of the time.


It really amounts to the following. God by Himself is 100% good. God created the universe to be 100% good. Status quo of goodness is maintained. God allowed evil to come about resulting in something other than GPG, but since Gods existence is not dependent upon maintaining the GPG nor is it against His will to allow or even personally lower the GPG Aarons ridiculous argument falls apart. The skeptic might inquire 'so why did God create' to which one can easily answer, 'because God wanted to create,' to which the skeptic might respond, 'well if God is all powerful then he does things in the best possible way and in the most effective way, but God - creation is the best possible way and in the most effective way. We have God + creation, which is not the best possible way nor the most effective way, so God must not be all powerful,' to which the theist responds. 'Gods choice to do something other than the best possible way and in the most effective way has noting at all to do with his capacity of His power. The capacity of Gods power is not dependent upon its use, because sometimes He might choose not utilize all of that power 100% all of the time.'
One might as well concede that michael phelps is not a fast swimmer because sometimes he treads water or plays in a swimming pool. One might as well concede Usain Bolt is not a fast runner because he jogs sometimes. One might as well concede Floyd Mayweather is not a good boxer because he play fights with his children or spars.

Were did you talk about supralapsarianism? Are you serious that that has nothing to do with what we are talking about? Actually it has everything to do with what we are talking about, you're just too stupid to see it.

No, it does not. You might think it does, due to your ignorance, but it does not. #3 is already false and not only that, you're begging the question assuming God is obligated to choose the GPG and assuming Gods existence and all goodness is dependent upon Him choosing the GPG. It clearly isn't, supralapsaianism has nothing at all to do with those refutations to your argument, try again.

No you're being the idiot here. I used the qualifier, "with the exception of size and scope." You didn't understand the analogy. How can you use your free will to get rid of aids or the flu or cancer? How can you use your free will to get your head out of the mouth of a lion? The world is like one giant room filled with shit like this. Some of us are lucky enough to never encounter it, others are not so lucky and free will has jack shit to do with it Theo. Seriously, go to a cancer ward and tell the patients there to cure themselves with their magical "free" will.

Tell a poor kid in Africa with malaria it's his fault for living in Africa. This is how you chose to answer the fucking question? No wonder I am the only person who actually reads your blog.

Where on earth did I ever say that you can use your free will to get rid of aids or the flue or cancer? where? Like I said, state your point clearly, if you have an argument MAKE IT, other wise shut up. Your stupid assertions and appeals to emotion are laughable.

Btw I love how you really racked up youtube subscribers and ratings after that amazing video to mine? Your at what, 0 subs now? Each video has a 1.5 star rating? Funny thing was that the other Christians who responded, and to whom I responded to, all have 4-5 star ratings, and all gained subs from the experience. Just saying...

Equating the validity of my video with the # of subscribers and ratings? testament to your illogical reasoning right there.

All this goes back to your laptop analogy. Answer me one last question, what's a more perfect laptop, one that can get viruses, or one that cannot?

Stupid question that ignores just about everything I've said. Obviously a more perfect laptop is one that cannot get viruses, but you're under the very ignorant assumption that Gods existence or attributes is dependent upon making the most perfect laptop.

To say with absolute certainty that the earth will always revolve around the sun, would be beyond ignorant. One day the earth with be consumed by the sun and no longer do this. The earth could also be dislodged from orbit, or any other variety of possible things.

Quote mine much. I never once said the earth will always revolve around the sun. Try again. I notice you ignored my 2+2=4 example as well.

You also don't know with absolute certainty that the earth in fact exists, nor for that matter do you know that the sun exists.

Well then you've called just about every single scientist, astrophysicist and astronomer ignorant, close minded, and self deceptive.

Aaron the incompetent atheist pt. 4

Theo, were did I say God created the world evil? Please show me quote. This is the straw man. I never said "created the world evil" I said created a world with evil in it. Please for the sake of Christ show me were I said "God created the world evil." I said god created natural evils in the world, but that's not the same thing.

Now you're trying to change the word 'the' with the word 'a' as if that changes anything. It doesn't. We're talking about one world and one world only, which is THIS WORLD. So in this sense, the word 'the' and the word 'a' are synonomous since they both refer to the same thing. With that being said, the following quote should suffice.

Creating a world with evil is not "the good".

In this quote he even says evil was instantly present.

God created the world. The world has evil in it. God created the world with evil in it, even it was instantly present,

You say I have changed my stance 7 times, but you if you read the 7 quotes it's obvious that they all say the same thing... So what are you on about?

This is just funny!

This quote:

1. No no no. God is morally obligated to do the good. Creating a world with evil is not "the good". Even a 2 year old can see that, right?
Is obviously not the same as this quote:

2. All fine and good, and not really addressing my point. The question is this: Why is there evil in the world and were did it come from?Why is there evil in the world and were did it come from?
Which is obviously not the same as this quote:

3. if god created a world with the potential for evil, a created a world with evil in it.

Another stupid assertion from Aaron.

God created a world with evil in it. That's a tautology, it's absolutely true. An argument from a bible verses is not a logical argument, specially if the evidence of existence proves the opposite.

God did not create a world with evil in it, God created a world with no evil in it and allowed evil to come into existence. Back to your old assertions again I see. An argument from a bible verse is a logical argument, especially in this case since you're arguing against my God whose characteristics and actions are found within those bible verses. The evidence of existence does not prove the opposite, in fact, the evidence of existence proves that God allows a world with evil, He did not create it. God creating the world all good at 10:00 knowing that evil will come into existence at 11:00 still means the world was good at 10:00. God did not create the world at 11:00, since it was already created at 10:00.

Why don't you address supralapsarianism? Are you scared?

I did address it, I said it was largely irrelevant to the argument at hand and it is.

Premise 3 admits my argument, and is my point. Right now, it is not the GPG. Lowering the GPG is going against the will of God as far as I can see. When all is said and done, billions of creations will be in hell, and trillions more will have suffered through life. How is that the GPG?

Then you are being logically inconsistent. What part of that do you not understand? You say God created a world that has evil in it because of #3. Going by that logic, God created the world with the GPG because of #1 and #2 and #4. You cannot have it both ways. Either God created the world with evil in it based upon #3 or God created the world with the GPG based upon 1,2 and 4.
Secondly, you are once again ASSUMING that lowering the GPG is going against the will of God, just like you ASSUME that Gods existence and 'all goodness' is dependent upon God choosing the GPG, just like you ASSUME that God is obligated in some way shape or form to choose the GPG. You are begging the question. You need to either provide evidence for these ridiculous assumptions or shut up about it.

BTW if that is supposed to be a syllogism it is neither sound nor valid. The conclusion doesn't follow logically from the premises. I am not sure what you are trying to assert with those 4 points.

it wasn't supposed to be a syllogism you ignorant moron.

Theo, you don't express yourself in a way that I can clearly understand. If you spent less time telling me I was illogical, and spent more time demonstrating it, perhaps I would understand what you are trying to say. But you don't, and I can't.

The irony of the first statement is hilarious, since Aaron is the one that is constantly changing what his point is.

Try this, remove the personal insults and just tell me what you actually mean. It will be much better for both of us.

No, the insults will remain as long as you continue to constantly change your points, ignore my questions and points, and refuse to concede your mistakes. You've read the rules you half wit, around here you get treated how you treat others.

What? God didn't place us in the world then?

Let me give you an example. I lock you in a room with a lion, a tiger and a bear. I also put parasites in the water and infectious disease in the air. Would I morally culpable for your death? Certainly from a legal stand point I would.

How is this analogy any different from God placing us in a world with natural evil, with the exception of size and scope?

You're an idiot. That is one of the stupidest comparisons I've seen in my life. First off, there are multiple rooms, thousands of rooms, rooms without lions, tigers or bears, diseases or parasites. Secondly, no one is locking people in there, as you have the option to go to whatever room you want to go to. Third God has not only provided ample ways to both get out of the room and avoid any dangers one might find themselves in if they were in the wrong room but your fellow man has as well. So people have the means and will to both leave the room or survive and even make life good in the rooms they might not initially like. It is the equivalent to blaming a 4 star general for the death of a soldier despite the soldier had both the tools to survive and used his own free will to get him into the situation in the first place, knowing full well the dangers of the situation. Exactly the kind of stupidity I've come to expect from you. Finally, in regards to your stupid comment about legal stand points, you once again show ignorance in basic Christian theology. God is not subject to our morals or our legal system. Try again. What moral system or code that God is subject to did God break?

If one of your family members dies of cancer and you going to say it's their fault for being alive? Are you going to say that the millions of people who suffered from leprosy deserved it for contracting it? Will you say that the millions who died of the black plague deserved it for living were they did died?

I don't even know what on earth these questions have to do with anything? seriously. What is the point of these questions, where on earth have I said people who suffered from leprosy deserved it for contracting it? what are you saying? Why don't you make your point in a clear manner instead of asking vague questions?

Will you ever address my claims in a fair way with out distorting my arguments?

Pot, kettle, black. Not only that but I have been addressing them in a fair way without distorting them, you either need to be more clear or admit that you've got nothing and you're only changing up your points because you don't want to admit you're wrong.

How can you be absolutely sure of any knowledge? Absolute sureness of knowledge is the greatest sign of ignorance, self deception and close mindedness. You are a paragon of this Theo, which is why I get such a laugh out of you.

Get your stupid, ignorant, poor attempts at proverbs outta here, not only are you once again assuming that I am absolutely sure of any knowledge but if one were to concede your stupid assertion makes sense, I anyone asserting 2+2=4 or the earth revolves around the sun is ignorant, self deceptive and close minded.

Aaron, the incompetent atheist pt. 3

He said -"The world right now is not 100% good, but it is not the world God created. "

Wait what? God didn't create this world? What the fuck does that mean Theo? This world was created by Allah? Something else created this world? It was brought about by natural selection and random processes? Give me a fucking break, you just keep making it more and more entertaining to troll you, I can never expect what sort of ridicules things you will say next.

Aaron cannot seem to understand the difference between creation and post creation. The only thing God created was a 100% good world. God simply allowed this world to come about. Allowing something to come about does not = God creating something, thus, to assert as many times as you did that God created the world with evil in it is false. I see you've admitted to trolling me. Like I said, you're a joke, glad you've admitted it, by your own admission you're not here for honest discussion.

You don't understand the premise. God would still exist, but the state of moral Good would be lessened by the presence of evil. The ironic thing is, that you who constantly calls me illogical are making a logic error by denying that premise. The greatest possible good defined - Greatest possible state of moral goodness. God would still be the same, but the state of possible goodness would be lessened.

Once again Aaron has resorted to telling me I don't understand something. A quick re cap on this often and very tiring tactic.

1. No no no. God is morally obligated to do the good. Creating a world with evil is not "the good". Even a 2 year old can see that, right?

2. All fine and good, and not really addressing my point. The question is this: Why is there evil in the world and were did it come from?Why is there evil in the world and were did it come from?

3. if god created a world with the potential for evil, a created a world with evil in it.

4. Theo says that a world with the possibility of evil is not the same as a world with the actuality of evil. While this statement may be true if the creator of such a world was not the greatest possible being, the creator he argues for is the greatest possible being.

5. Theo, that's my whole point. I don't care what it was like at the exact moment of creation. I am saying, THE WORLD GOD CREATED HAS EVIL IN IT, BECAUSE OF HOW HE MADE IT.

6. I was never arguing that God created the world evil. If I said such a thing, and I am almost certain I have not, that wasn't my point.

You've changed your point 6 different times. Now, onto the NEW POINT, which will undoubtedly be changed after it is shown to be wanting as well.

God would still exist, but the state of moral Good would be lessened by the presence of evil.

How on earth does Gods existence depend upon the presence of evil or the overall state of possible goodness being lessened?

If you accept premise one, you have to accept premise three. The only premise you can really argue against here is premise one, but your a little too hot in the collar to see that. You attempt to reject the premise was a strawman.

3 is not about whether god creates anything, if god created only a perfect world, still the GPG, but when he creates a world, like ours, WITH EVIL IN IT, not the GPG.

My point is that God created a world that has evil in it, and that it is the way it is by design. There is a flaw in the way the world was created that allows evil. This flaw is here because the world is the way god created it.

So now, we have the 7th installment of the point, which is just as absurd as the other 6. God did not design the world that has evil in it, God designed a world that did not have evil in it.

1. At the beginning when God was alone it was GPG
2. When God created everything it was still GPG
3. When God allowed evil to come into existence it was not GPG
4. When all is said and done, it will be the GPG (God reigns on earth, end of satan, GPG for all time etc. etc.)

So, if you're asserting God creating the world that has evil in it because of #3 then that logic states that God created the world with the GPG because of #1 and #2 and #4. You cannot have it both ways. Either God created the world with evil in it based upon #3 or God created the world with the GPG based upon 1,2 and 4. You're taking one specific point in time and saying God created the world with evil in it, despite other specific points in time that state God did not create the world with evil in it and instead created it with the GPG. You're being logically inconsistent.
Not only that, but if we assume for the sake of argument that the inclusion of the 'flaw' of free will led to something other than the GPG, that assumes that Gods existence and 'all goodness' is dependent upon God choosing the GPG. So you're assuming that God is obligated in some way shape or form to choose the GPG, you're also assuming that God didn't choose the GPG for His creation, in knowing that God is only the GPG and thus choose the GPG for His creation. Oh and before you even assert that God needed to create something, that is also an assumption. God can create just because He wants to or create things for His pleasure, which does not = need.

I was never arguing that God created the world evil. If I said such a thing, and I am almost certain I have not, that wasn't my point. I did say God created the world with natural evils, something you have only responded to by invoking creationism, and btw ID doesn't give an accounting for natural evil sorry.

Natural evil? what on earth are you even talking about? you just sat there and said 'moral good' in your previous statement, now you're talking about natural evil. Natural evil is not moral evil. You're equivocating. Either evil means morally wrong or bad or it means characterized or accompanied by misfortune or suffering. Natural evil cannot be morally evil, since animals, gravity, and elements do not have morals nor do animals operating on natural instincts violate any type of moral code. So you're equivocating. Looking forward to you screaming 'that's not what I meant again.' Despite you clearly talking about natural evil.

Lastly the Augustinian Theodicy, is the free will defense you moron. Who feed you that bad information. If that's what you are arguing for, you have not expressed that in a clear way.

I believe you're once again taking what I said out of context. A quick recap.

You said: Again, I cannot stress this enough, no respectable Christian philosopher would say that God created a world that doesn't contain evil in it.

Augustine said God created a world that doesn't contain evil in it, therefore your ridiculous claim is false. You're now, once again, taking what I said out of context, since I brought up Augustine to simply refute your ignorant claim.

Aaron, the incompetant atheist Pt. 2

Finishing up my little back and for with Theo and the Truth In Fighting Blog, I figure I have little left to say at this point. Theo has constantly accused me of all sorts of intellectual foolishness, yet he's not done a great deal to prove his point.

This is demonstratively false. I have proven his ridiculous assertions that God created the world evil to be false, along with his assertion that a world with free will, is a world that contains evil to be false, and his very ignorant assertion that the potential of evil is synonymous with creating evil during the actual creation. It's about that simple.

Theo has however, expressed that he is a creationist. Something, that while I could of guessed it, should of guessed, I was not willing to sling that mud with out first having the knowledge that I was correct. Well I was correct. Creationism, in any form - I.D. - young earth creationism, is an intellectually dishonest tactic

I have expressed no such thing, so who knows where he got that from. Not to mention the very stupid assertion that any form of creationism is an intellectually dishonest tactic. He then goes on to write 3 paragraphs about creationism, equating the validity of creationism with the people that believe in it. Hilarious and a testament to his irrational illogical reasoning, since the validity of something is completely independent of the people or lack of people that bLelieve in it.

If Theo had bothered to study what contemporary Christian philosophy had to say about the problem of evil, he may be able to formulate some interesting arguments; but he hasn't and so he cannot.

I know exactly what contemporary Christian philosophy says about the POE and so what? what on earth does that have to do with my assertions? what on earth does that have to do with anything that I have said? Aaron in his ignorance seems to think that there is only 1 way to refute an argument or something.

Theo says that a world with the possibility of evil is not the same as a world with the actuality of evil. While this statement may be true if the creator of such a world was not the greatest possible being, the creator he argues for is the greatest possible being. Theo seems to be arguing for some bumbling idoit of a God, one who simply could not foresee the possible consequences of his creations. But this being has maximal possible knowledge, so even if he didn't know exactly what the future would be like, something theisticly add odds with dozens of bible versus, he would still be able to know what the probabilistic future of the world would be. He would know that placing a tree of good and evil, and a talking snake, in his so called paradise would lead to the fall with absolute certainty, most specially if the creatures he placed there had no knowledge of good and evil, and thus could not possibly know they had sinned. If God creates a world with the possiblity of evil, God has created a world knowing that evil exist in this world.

He still cannot grasp the difference between actual and possible. Throwing Gods attributes in there doesn't change anything. The words are still antonyms, they still are not synonomous. God creating the world all good at 10:00 knowing that evil will come into existence at 11:00 still means the world was good at 10:00. It is really that simple. There was no evil that God created, PERIOD. God simply allowed the evil to come to pass, which is a lot different than creating it. So Aaron is basically reiterating what I've already refuted and decided to throw Gods attributes in there thinking it would change something, it didn't. In fact, arguing that evil will at some point come into the future is once again tacitly conceding the argument! since the evil comes IN THE FUTURE, not in the present act of creation. Placing a tree was not evil neither was placing a snake or human beings with free will. The evil didn't happen until after the creation. God knowing evil will come about does not = God creating evil, since the evil did not come about until after the creation. This is evident in both the bible and the fact that Aaron himself used the word 'forsee.'

–verb (used with object)
1. to have prescience of; to know in advance; foreknow.
2. to see beforehand.
–verb (used without object)
3. to exercise foresight.

By stating that God would know the future, Aaron is once again conceding the argument. God knew in the future that evil was going to be present, but the key word is IN THE FUTURE, not in the present. So at the PRESENT TIME OF CREATION, there was no evil because God saw it was going to be there IN THE FUTURE. Once again, Aaron has conceded the argument but is too ignorant to understand that he did.

This is why, as I have said in previous blog posts addressed to the much more intellectually challenging and thoughtful Steven, that if Christianity is true, than supralapsarianism is most likely true. I doubt that Theo even knows what this word means, or for that matter what it entails. But the fact remains that this is by far the most honest interpretation, at least in my own opinion, of Christian theology.

Not only do I know what that means, it is largely irrelevant to the argument at hand. I don't care what you think of someone else, the very fact that you are both unable to effectively argue your claims and unable to refute mine shows it doesn't take much for you to consider something 'intellectually challenging and thoughtful.'

God created the world. The world has evil in it. God created the world with evil in it, even it was instantly present, it was inherit and absolute in accordance with the creation of the system. Had god made a world that evil wasn't possible, we wouldn't be having this discussion

Lets see. Everything was good all the way up until the 3rd sentence. God did not create the world with evil in it. You just CONSTANTLY REPEAT THIS NONSENSE OVER AND OVER. I mean, its like you're saying 'forget providing evidence for that assertion, repeating it over and over will do!' Seriously. You're a joke. There was no evil present at creation, your baseless assertions are just that, empty baseless assertions without a shred of evidence to support them, in direct contradiction to my arguments which show quite clearly that God did not create a world with evil in it. In fact, Aarons own words state that as well. He uses words like "forsee" and "potential" which directly state that at the time of creation, there was on evil. So Aaron is even ignoring his own words at this point.

Theo makes the silly claim that we have free will in heaven and there is no sin there. Theo, why then did Lucifer conduct himself in the most sinful of ways in heaven, thus resulting in his explusion? This is a non-sense explanation that you cannot further elaborate on, because you know reading this that you misspoke.

Mistake on your part. Not only was I talking about heaven POST Satans imprisonment, which describes not only a good world but humans using free will within that good world. I also said that Adam and Eve had free will and the world was good, so you completely ignored that assertion. Finally, even if I was talking about heaven before Satan was kicked out, you seem to forget why he was he was expelled in the first place. Because there is no evil in heaven, when satan did evil he was expelled. Do you not know what the word expelled means? Do I have to show you that definition too?

Theo accuses me of "quote mining" though he is misusing the fallacy here. I think he means that I am making a straw man of his argument, which while basically the same thing, is not in the way that he is using it. You cannot quote mine some one you are debating if the quote you use is in context and about the topic you are debating, and from the same debate. When I used Theo's example, I used it with the near exact wording and in the exact same context that he did. I didn't change the meaning of put it out of context. He claims that all analogies break down, what does this mean? He admits the failure of this analogy, yet he continues to use it for the rest of the post? The analogy was a poor one, a good analogy won't break down. Your failure to defend your analogy, your admission that it does work, it only an admission that your own viewpoint doesn't work.

I explained the purpose of my analogy was to simply show the difference between creation and post creation and THAT IS IT. You took my analogy out of context by not arguing what it was intended for, so that would be your quote mine. Finally, ALL ANALOGIES FAIL AT SOME POINT, ALL ANLOGIES BREAK DOWN, if they didn't they wouldn't be analogies, they would be IDENTICAL. What part of this do you not understand? oh wait, let's open up the dictionary again.

1. a similarity between like features of two things, on which a comparison may be based: the analogy between the heart and a pump.
Here is an even better one:

Similarity in some respects between things that are otherwise dissimilar.

Now lets look at identical.

similar or alike in every way: The two cars are identical except for their license plates.

Well gee, would you look at that. An analogy cannot be similar in every single way, otherwise it would be IDENTICAL.

1. God is the greatest possible good.
2. If God is the greatest possible good and he does not create, then there will only be the greatest possible good.
3. If God creates, then there would not be the greatest possible good.
4. Either God creates or God does not create.
5. Therefore, either there is the greatest possible good or there is not the greatest possible good.
6. If God exists, then he would choose the greatest possible good.
7. There is not the greatest possible good.
8. Therefore, God does not exist.

#3 is wrong, we've been through this before and I've proved it false 3 times over in this exchange. You are assuming that if God creates, then there would not be the greatest possible good, that is not only an assumption but an incorrect assumption at that, as I have proved in these exchanges. I said this in the video and also said it in a thread over on Tweb.

Let's say for example when God was alone without the universe the status quo of goodness was 100%. God initially created the universe and everything in it and it was good (Genesis 1) the status quo was still 100%. So your syllogism ignores Gods initial creation of the universe and is also assumes the act of creating things was not good. According to the bible, this is not the case, the initial act of creation was good, the status quo of goodness was maintained, so #1, in addition to the things I mentioned earlier, assumes that God cannot create things and still have the status quo remain 100% good. So in a sense I reject #1 becuase of the assumptions, not because it is not factual. Yes God is the greatest possible good, but God and what God creates(that are not molested and keep their initial state, stuff that is not 'corrupted by sin or sinners') would still maintain the original status quo of goodness.

Like I said, we've been through this before, this is just you ignoring the evidence your assertions are wrong and just continuing to assert it over and over. Not only that, but #3 being false isn't the only thing incorrect about your argument, but for now it will due to refute it.

The Catholic church makes up the majority of Christians, about 1.1 billion+, and both the Pope and the Catholic church accept the theory of evolution. So the accounts for more than half right there, even you though you might be likely to say that Catholics are not Christians, simply google the fallacy "No true Scots man".

You're confusing the Catholic Churches position on evolution with people actually believing in it. Even then, you are not even accurately representing the Churches position.

Concerning biological evolution, the Church does not have an official position on whether various life forms developed over the course of time. However, it says that, if they did develop, then they did so under the impetus and guidance of God, and their ultimate creation must be ascribed to him.

Concerning human evolution, the Church has a more definite teaching. It allows for the possibility that man’s body developed from previous biological forms, under God’s guidance, but it insists on the special creation of his soul. Pope Pius XII declared that "the teaching authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions . . . take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter—[but] the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God" (Pius XII, Humani Generis 36). So whether the human body was specially created or developed, we are required to hold as a matter of Catholic faith that the human soul is specially created; it did not evolve, and it is not inherited from our parents, as our bodies are.

While the Church permits belief in either special creation or developmental creation on certain questions, it in no circumstances permits belief in atheistic evolution.

So you can't even accurately present data to support your assertions.

But furthermore Catholics are not the only group that believes in evolution, pretty much every denomination of non-fundamentalist Christians accept evolution. Several leading evolutionary biologists are Christians, such as Francis Collins. Google theistic evolution to understand their position better.

There you go again, confusing positions the churches take with the number of people that actually believe in it. You see, Churches support both positions, creationism and evolution. Not only that, but your assertions go against the available evidence as well.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/31/national/31religion.html

In a finding that is likely to intensify the debate over what to teach students about the origins of life, a poll released yesterday found that nearly two-thirds of Americans say that creationism should be taught alongside evolution in public schools

http://www.hcdi.net/polls/J5776/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4648598.stm

Creationism is unique to fundamentalist religiosity, and it is also absent from respectable Christian philosophy and teachings of philosophers like Dr. Craig and Alvan Plantinga; both accept the theory of evolution.

There you go again equating the validity of something with who doesn't believe in it. It is a testament to your irrational illogical reasoning. Not only that but both Craig and Plantinga support ID. So you're once again caught not being accurate with data.

Whether you are a OEC or YEC makes no real difference, you're still holding to an absurd intellectually dishonest position.

How ironic. You state OEC and YEC is an absurd intellectually dishonest position, but in stating that, you are being intellectually dishonest, since there are many intellectuals that support and adhere to ID.

Again, I cannot stress this enough, no respectable Christian philosopher would say that God created a world that doesn't contain evil in it. Not one. This is why there are theodicy's and defenses against the problem of evil.

Really? because you say so? how on earth do you even know that? it is also hilarious how you state I am ignorant in the POE yet here you are showing ignorance in the POE. St Augustine said the same thing I am saying, that God created everything good. In fact, it is called Augustinian Theodicy, so you're once again, Incorrect. It is becoming an entertaining trend with you.

I bring up you're education because of you're misuse of terms like "logic", "assertion" and "fallacy". If you did receive a formal education in philosophy your teachers served you very poorly.

Show me a single time I've misused either of those words.