Finishing up my little back and for with Theo and the Truth In Fighting Blog, I figure I have little left to say at this point. Theo has constantly accused me of all sorts of intellectual foolishness, yet he's not done a great deal to prove his point.
This is demonstratively false. I have proven his ridiculous assertions that God created the world evil to be false, along with his assertion that a world with free will, is a world that contains evil to be false, and his very ignorant assertion that the potential of evil is synonymous with creating evil during the actual creation. It's about that simple.
Theo has however, expressed that he is a creationist. Something, that while I could of guessed it, should of guessed, I was not willing to sling that mud with out first having the knowledge that I was correct. Well I was correct. Creationism, in any form - I.D. - young earth creationism, is an intellectually dishonest tactic
I have expressed no such thing, so who knows where he got that from. Not to mention the very stupid assertion that any form of creationism is an intellectually dishonest tactic. He then goes on to write 3 paragraphs about creationism, equating the validity of creationism with the people that believe in it. Hilarious and a testament to his irrational illogical reasoning, since the validity of something is completely independent of the people or lack of people that bLelieve in it.
If Theo had bothered to study what contemporary Christian philosophy had to say about the problem of evil, he may be able to formulate some interesting arguments; but he hasn't and so he cannot.
I know exactly what contemporary Christian philosophy says about the POE and so what? what on earth does that have to do with my assertions? what on earth does that have to do with anything that I have said? Aaron in his ignorance seems to think that there is only 1 way to refute an argument or something.
Theo says that a world with the possibility of evil is not the same as a world with the actuality of evil. While this statement may be true if the creator of such a world was not the greatest possible being, the creator he argues for is the greatest possible being. Theo seems to be arguing for some bumbling idoit of a God, one who simply could not foresee the possible consequences of his creations. But this being has maximal possible knowledge, so even if he didn't know exactly what the future would be like, something theisticly add odds with dozens of bible versus, he would still be able to know what the probabilistic future of the world would be. He would know that placing a tree of good and evil, and a talking snake, in his so called paradise would lead to the fall with absolute certainty, most specially if the creatures he placed there had no knowledge of good and evil, and thus could not possibly know they had sinned. If God creates a world with the possiblity of evil, God has created a world knowing that evil exist in this world.
He still cannot grasp the difference between actual and possible. Throwing Gods attributes in there doesn't change anything. The words are still antonyms, they still are not synonomous. God creating the world all good at 10:00 knowing that evil will come into existence at 11:00 still means the world was good at 10:00. It is really that simple. There was no evil that God created, PERIOD. God simply allowed the evil to come to pass, which is a lot different than creating it. So Aaron is basically reiterating what I've already refuted and decided to throw Gods attributes in there thinking it would change something, it didn't. In fact, arguing that evil will at some point come into the future is once again tacitly conceding the argument! since the evil comes IN THE FUTURE, not in the present act of creation. Placing a tree was not evil neither was placing a snake or human beings with free will. The evil didn't happen until after the creation. God knowing evil will come about does not = God creating evil, since the evil did not come about until after the creation. This is evident in both the bible and the fact that Aaron himself used the word 'forsee.'
–verb (used with object)
1. to have prescience of; to know in advance; foreknow.
2. to see beforehand.
–verb (used without object)
3. to exercise foresight.
By stating that God would know the future, Aaron is once again conceding the argument. God knew in the future that evil was going to be present, but the key word is IN THE FUTURE, not in the present. So at the PRESENT TIME OF CREATION, there was no evil because God saw it was going to be there IN THE FUTURE. Once again, Aaron has conceded the argument but is too ignorant to understand that he did.
This is why, as I have said in previous blog posts addressed to the much more intellectually challenging and thoughtful Steven, that if Christianity is true, than supralapsarianism is most likely true. I doubt that Theo even knows what this word means, or for that matter what it entails. But the fact remains that this is by far the most honest interpretation, at least in my own opinion, of Christian theology.
Not only do I know what that means, it is largely irrelevant to the argument at hand. I don't care what you think of someone else, the very fact that you are both unable to effectively argue your claims and unable to refute mine shows it doesn't take much for you to consider something 'intellectually challenging and thoughtful.'
God created the world. The world has evil in it. God created the world with evil in it, even it was instantly present, it was inherit and absolute in accordance with the creation of the system. Had god made a world that evil wasn't possible, we wouldn't be having this discussion
Lets see. Everything was good all the way up until the 3rd sentence. God did not create the world with evil in it. You just CONSTANTLY REPEAT THIS NONSENSE OVER AND OVER. I mean, its like you're saying 'forget providing evidence for that assertion, repeating it over and over will do!' Seriously. You're a joke. There was no evil present at creation, your baseless assertions are just that, empty baseless assertions without a shred of evidence to support them, in direct contradiction to my arguments which show quite clearly that God did not create a world with evil in it. In fact, Aarons own words state that as well. He uses words like "forsee" and "potential" which directly state that at the time of creation, there was on evil. So Aaron is even ignoring his own words at this point.
Theo makes the silly claim that we have free will in heaven and there is no sin there. Theo, why then did Lucifer conduct himself in the most sinful of ways in heaven, thus resulting in his explusion? This is a non-sense explanation that you cannot further elaborate on, because you know reading this that you misspoke.
Mistake on your part. Not only was I talking about heaven POST Satans imprisonment, which describes not only a good world but humans using free will within that good world. I also said that Adam and Eve had free will and the world was good, so you completely ignored that assertion. Finally, even if I was talking about heaven before Satan was kicked out, you seem to forget why he was he was expelled in the first place. Because there is no evil in heaven, when satan did evil he was expelled. Do you not know what the word expelled means? Do I have to show you that definition too?
Theo accuses me of "quote mining" though he is misusing the fallacy here. I think he means that I am making a straw man of his argument, which while basically the same thing, is not in the way that he is using it. You cannot quote mine some one you are debating if the quote you use is in context and about the topic you are debating, and from the same debate. When I used Theo's example, I used it with the near exact wording and in the exact same context that he did. I didn't change the meaning of put it out of context. He claims that all analogies break down, what does this mean? He admits the failure of this analogy, yet he continues to use it for the rest of the post? The analogy was a poor one, a good analogy won't break down. Your failure to defend your analogy, your admission that it does work, it only an admission that your own viewpoint doesn't work.
I explained the purpose of my analogy was to simply show the difference between creation and post creation and THAT IS IT. You took my analogy out of context by not arguing what it was intended for, so that would be your quote mine. Finally, ALL ANALOGIES FAIL AT SOME POINT, ALL ANLOGIES BREAK DOWN, if they didn't they wouldn't be analogies, they would be IDENTICAL. What part of this do you not understand? oh wait, let's open up the dictionary again.
1. a similarity between like features of two things, on which a comparison may be based: the analogy between the heart and a pump.
Here is an even better one:
Similarity in some respects between things that are otherwise dissimilar.
Now lets look at identical.
similar or alike in every way: The two cars are identical except for their license plates.
Well gee, would you look at that. An analogy cannot be similar in every single way, otherwise it would be IDENTICAL.
1. God is the greatest possible good.
2. If God is the greatest possible good and he does not create, then there will only be the greatest possible good.
3. If God creates, then there would not be the greatest possible good.
4. Either God creates or God does not create.
5. Therefore, either there is the greatest possible good or there is not the greatest possible good.
6. If God exists, then he would choose the greatest possible good.
7. There is not the greatest possible good.
8. Therefore, God does not exist.
#3 is wrong, we've been through this before and I've proved it false 3 times over in this exchange. You are assuming that if God creates, then there would not be the greatest possible good, that is not only an assumption but an incorrect assumption at that, as I have proved in these exchanges. I said this in the video and also said it in a thread over on Tweb.
Let's say for example when God was alone without the universe the status quo of goodness was 100%. God initially created the universe and everything in it and it was good (Genesis 1) the status quo was still 100%. So your syllogism ignores Gods initial creation of the universe and is also assumes the act of creating things was not good. According to the bible, this is not the case, the initial act of creation was good, the status quo of goodness was maintained, so #1, in addition to the things I mentioned earlier, assumes that God cannot create things and still have the status quo remain 100% good. So in a sense I reject #1 becuase of the assumptions, not because it is not factual. Yes God is the greatest possible good, but God and what God creates(that are not molested and keep their initial state, stuff that is not 'corrupted by sin or sinners') would still maintain the original status quo of goodness.
Like I said, we've been through this before, this is just you ignoring the evidence your assertions are wrong and just continuing to assert it over and over. Not only that, but #3 being false isn't the only thing incorrect about your argument, but for now it will due to refute it.
The Catholic church makes up the majority of Christians, about 1.1 billion+, and both the Pope and the Catholic church accept the theory of evolution. So the accounts for more than half right there, even you though you might be likely to say that Catholics are not Christians, simply google the fallacy "No true Scots man".
You're confusing the Catholic Churches position on evolution with people actually believing in it. Even then, you are not even accurately representing the Churches position.
Concerning biological evolution, the Church does not have an official position on whether various life forms developed over the course of time. However, it says that, if they did develop, then they did so under the impetus and guidance of God, and their ultimate creation must be ascribed to him.
Concerning human evolution, the Church has a more definite teaching. It allows for the possibility that man’s body developed from previous biological forms, under God’s guidance, but it insists on the special creation of his soul. Pope Pius XII declared that "the teaching authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions . . . take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter—[but] the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God" (Pius XII, Humani Generis 36). So whether the human body was specially created or developed, we are required to hold as a matter of Catholic faith that the human soul is specially created; it did not evolve, and it is not inherited from our parents, as our bodies are.
While the Church permits belief in either special creation or developmental creation on certain questions, it in no circumstances permits belief in atheistic evolution.
So you can't even accurately present data to support your assertions.
But furthermore Catholics are not the only group that believes in evolution, pretty much every denomination of non-fundamentalist Christians accept evolution. Several leading evolutionary biologists are Christians, such as Francis Collins. Google theistic evolution to understand their position better.
There you go again, confusing positions the churches take with the number of people that actually believe in it. You see, Churches support both positions, creationism and evolution. Not only that, but your assertions go against the available evidence as well.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/31/national/31religion.html
In a finding that is likely to intensify the debate over what to teach students about the origins of life, a poll released yesterday found that nearly two-thirds of Americans say that creationism should be taught alongside evolution in public schools
http://www.hcdi.net/polls/J5776/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4648598.stm
Creationism is unique to fundamentalist religiosity, and it is also absent from respectable Christian philosophy and teachings of philosophers like Dr. Craig and Alvan Plantinga; both accept the theory of evolution.
There you go again equating the validity of something with who doesn't believe in it. It is a testament to your irrational illogical reasoning. Not only that but both Craig and Plantinga support ID. So you're once again caught not being accurate with data.
Whether you are a OEC or YEC makes no real difference, you're still holding to an absurd intellectually dishonest position.
How ironic. You state OEC and YEC is an absurd intellectually dishonest position, but in stating that, you are being intellectually dishonest, since there are many intellectuals that support and adhere to ID.
Again, I cannot stress this enough, no respectable Christian philosopher would say that God created a world that doesn't contain evil in it. Not one. This is why there are theodicy's and defenses against the problem of evil.
Really? because you say so? how on earth do you even know that? it is also hilarious how you state I am ignorant in the POE yet here you are showing ignorance in the POE. St Augustine said the same thing I am saying, that God created everything good. In fact, it is called Augustinian Theodicy, so you're once again, Incorrect. It is becoming an entertaining trend with you.
I bring up you're education because of you're misuse of terms like "logic", "assertion" and "fallacy". If you did receive a formal education in philosophy your teachers served you very poorly.
Show me a single time I've misused either of those words.
